Tax Planning, Legacy Planning, and Listener Q&A!

Taylor Schulte: Welcome to the Stay Wealthy Podcast. I'm your host, Taylor Schulte. And before we get to today's episode, I just wanted to take a couple of minutes to address something that one of our listeners, Rick D. brought up to me in response to the last series on long-term care. And that is some of my strong comments I made towards insurance salespeople and commission based products that are sold by financial advisors.

I'll be the first to admit, and I admitted this to Rick, that I can certainly get a bit too extreme when it comes to insurance products and financial advisor compensation models. For example, I often emphasize that the giant conflicts of interest that exist when a financial advisor is paid a commission for selling a product like an annuity or a mutual fund or even a long-term care policy.

The point that I'm typically trying to drive home is that with this sort of compensation arrangement, it's just not always easy to figure out if what's being sold to you is in your best interest or theirs are, are, are they just selling you this product to meet a sales quota or, and make some more money?

Or is it truly the best solution at the best price and something that you truly need. That being said, I don't always follow up these comments by pointing out that there are plenty of great financial advisors and insurance salespeople who do have their client's best interest in mind when making these recommendations, even if they're compensated with commissions.

Because in reality, every compensation model comes with conflicts of interest and has its own flaws. Even monthly fees and hourly fee models. It's literally impossible for any financial advisor or any professional for that matter to remove all conflicts, which means you have to do your due diligence to find an expert that you can trust.

In many cases, paying a financial advisor or insurance salesperson, a one-time commission to buy a single product like a hybrid long-term care policy, oftentimes that makes the most sense. You certainly want, wouldn't want to, to pay an ongoing annual fee for something that doesn't require ongoing attention and maintenance.

Now, you might have to spend a little bit more time doing your due diligence when working with a commission-based advisor, given that they aren't legally bound by the fiduciary standard. And fees and conflicts are not always clearly disclosed, but that doesn't mean that they're all bad people trying to take advantage of you.

Similarly, just because a financial advisor is legally bound by the fiduciary standard doesn't necessarily mean that they're a trustworthy person. And you don't need to spend time vetting them out either. I'm sure there are plenty of quote, fiduciary financial advisors who don't adhere to their fiduciary obligations and find ways to take advantage of clients.

In the end, just like any professional in your life that you might hire, it's critical that you do your homework and do your due diligence to ensure that you're hiring a trustworthy advisor who truly puts your interest ahead of their own, clearly discloses fees and conflicts of interest, and has a clean professional record.

I still believe that most people should be working with a financial advisor who adheres to the fiduciary standard 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean that there aren't great advisors who operate under different standards and fee models. And I'll admit it's not fair of me to make blanket statements without acknowledging that.

So thank you to our listener Rick D. for reaching out and sharing his feedback. And with that, let's get into today's episode.

Last month, I was interviewed by Steve Chen, host of the New Retirement Podcast. While many of our podcast listeners don't want to do the heavy lifting and they want to delegate all of their financial and tax funding to a firm like mine so they can enjoy retirement, some of you guys thoroughly enjoy doing it yourselves. And if you are, if you're a lifelong do-it-yourselfer planning for retirement newretirement.com would be a great platform for you to check out and consider.

In addition to their planning tools and calculators and helpful resources, they also have a great retirement podcast, and I was honored to be a guest in our conversation. We dug into Roth conversions, tax decisions that you don't know you're making legacy planning and more. And with Steve's permission, I'm going to replay that interview right here for all of our listeners to enjoy.

So with that, here is my conversation with Steve Chen on the New Retirement Podcast.

Steve Chen: Taylor, welcome to our show. It's great to have you join us.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, Steve, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Steve Chen: Yeah, so just you know, quick personal questions we could go on, but like, how's it going with three weeks in with kid number three?

Taylor Schulte: It's going great. You know, it kinda reminds me how easy the newborn stage is. We've got a four-year-old and a two and a half-year-old on top of the newborn, and they're the most difficult right now. The newborn just eats and sleeps all day and, you know, I'm, I'm here trying to tackle these two toddlers and keep them under control while my wife recovers.

So yeah, the newborn's doing great. We're really excited to have our family rounded out. We had a girl, so we've got two boys and a girl, and yeah, we're feeling really good.

Steve Chen: That's awesome. Yeah, and just for our listeners, the way we got connected was Taylor posted on Twitter, a picture of his new baby and kid number three with caption, you know, see you never, and that resonated with me cause I have three kids and I was like, yeah, you, there's kind of like a lost decade that you could be facing and you know, I think that's we bonded a little bit over that.

Anyway, so, you know, but before we get into kind of the tax and legacy questions, just wanted to kind of get a little bit on your background, you know, how you got started as a financial planner and ultimately what led you to create your own firm.

Taylor Schulte: Sure. So it actually goes back to when I was about age 12 or 13. At every Christmas, my grandfather was known for giving us some cash in an envelope. It'd be, you know, $20 or $50. And we were always excited to go to Grandpa's house because we'd get some cash to go buy a video game or something.

And that year, instead of cash, he gave us grandkids a stock certificate and he used that stock certificate as a tool to teach us about money and investing and how to look up the stock and the newspaper and dividends and compounding interest and all that good stuff.

And I remember being really disappointed at the time, right? I wanted that cold hard cash. There wasn't much I could do with the stock certificate at that time, but, you know, it really did kind of pave the way for me to becoming a financial planner. It piqued my interest in finance in general. And as I learned more and more, I just, I knew that's what I wanted to do.

So on day one, when I graduated college at age you know, 22, I had a job at one of the very large brokerage firms here in San Diego. And yeah, I was thrown right into the fire. So I started kind of building my business then, and I was there for, gosh, five or six years. And I kind of quickly learned that it wasn't my long-term home, as I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with.

The large well-known brokerage firms don't adhere to the fiduciary standard. So I found myself sitting in a lot of these meetings listening to ideas for, you know, how we can make more money or how we can make the firm more money rather than how we can make our clients more money. And it just kind of felt backward.

And so kind of once I uncovered this and learned more about the fiduciary standard and how we can do things differently for clients. I launched my firm, so I launched Defined Financial in 2014. We now work with about 70 families around the country. We only work with people over age 50. We specialize in retirement and tax funding for those individuals. And we just stay really, really narrow and just work with that exact demographic.

We like to just, you know, do our best work with those people. You know, I say you wouldn't go to a neurologist if you needed knee surgery. And so, you know, we don't want to try to serve everybody. We just love doing tax planning and investment management and retirement planning for, for people over age 50.

Steve Chen: That's awesome. Yeah. Did you start out saying, okay, we're gonna focus on people over age 50 or kind of fall into it as you got a couple years into the practice?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, I kind of fell into it, you know, just because you were taught in the early days to essentially work with anyone and everyone who was willing to trust you with their money.

And so I had to kind of unlearn a lot of the things that I was taught. And again, just taking a page out of you know, the doctor profession or the legal profession. You know, just learning that, you know, we can get really narrow and just do a really, really, really good job for a very small percentage of the population. We don't need to serve everybody necessarily.

And I always just, I'm kind of an old soul at heart and I always just kinda enjoyed working with my older clients. And so we went backward for a couple years transitioning, you know, some of the younger clients out to other firms and just getting really, really focused.

So that's where we're at today, and yeah, it's been really exciting and a lot of fun. And obviously with some of the tax, you know, changes coming up, it's been fun for us to work through those as well.

Steve Chen: Right. Well, it's good. It's a good niche too. I mean, you know, when I talk with Dana you can see just how much thought goes into it, and there's a lot of complexity, especially as people are kind of in that transition period kind of leading into retirement, there's opportunities around tax efficiency.

We'll talk about some of that and then as you kind of first get into it, like how do you turn on the income, the psychology of starting to spend versus save thinking about healthcare, especially before Medicare. There's a lot that happens.

Are you able, I mean, do you find your clients, I think a lot of people when they think about this segment, they're like, oh, well people like piling up money, but then when they get to retirement, there's really not gonna be that much to do, so will they stick around as clients? But it sounds like you're building a pretty robust practice, you know, serving these clients.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, we actually hear the complete opposite. So a lot of the clients that join our firm are your traditional do-it-yourself investor who's been at Vanguard for 30 years and, you know, they've been working hard and saving money and investing in low-cost index funds, and they, you know, they've done a great job saving. And when they start to think about retirement, they realize that the deaccumulation phase is very different than the accumulation phase, right?

It's fairly straightforward to make money, save money, and invest it in low-cost funds and just, you know, keep your head down. When you get to the decumulation phase, it's like, okay, I've got, you know, all this money now and they're all in different types of accounts with different tax treatments. How am I going to turn this into, you know, a retirement paycheck? Maybe income's not a big issue for you. Maybe you have pensions and other sources of income.

Then it becomes like, wow, I'm now realizing I'm gonna have a giant tax problem right at age 70 or 72 when required minimum distributions kick in. How am I gonna combat this giant tax bill that's gonna, you know, that's gonna hit me. And so yeah, we often hear, yeah, I've never worked with a financial planner, but now I'm realizing that I need to work with somebody. I just don't really wanna spend my retirement figuring this out myself.

The other thing that we hear too is that, you know, there's always one spouse that kind of takes the lead in the financial, you know, relationship for the household. And we often hear, you know, if I got hit by a bus, my wife or my husband wouldn't know what's going on, and so they want somebody in the picture to help them out.

Steve Chen: Yeah, well, we hear that too, for sure. And I also think as people live longer and they face cognitive decline, there's like some risk and there's gonna be a bunch of questions about, you know, there are questions about setting up your legacy and your power of attorney and all that stuff properly. But if you, you know, think that, you know, there's a risk that someone's gonna have weaker decision making how do you navigate that?

And let's, we'll dive into that in a second. But, you know on the tax planning side, just at a high level, you know, what are, what are some of the big considerations that you know, your users or clients come to you with?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, I think a common misconception by a lot of savers, whether you're in the accumulation phase or not, or you know, you're entering retirement is, you know, I don't have that much money or I don't make that much money. You know, tax planning is for the ultra-wealthy. And that's not really true, right? I mean, just choosing the type of retirement account that you're saving in a traditional IRA or a traditional 401K versus a Roth, I mean, that is a tax planning consideration or a tax planning decision that you can make.

So you know, some of the tax, the top tax planning considerations are is just that. So the types of accounts that you're using that you're saving in the tax efficiency of the investment vehicles you're using, right? Different tax treatments for individual stocks versus ETFs versus mutual funds. Roth conversions and charitable giving are two big considerations, which I know we're gonna dive into today.

And then lastly, just really, really high level is starting this, what we call proactive tax planning early. I think just too many people wait until they're retired or, you know, they're in their mid-sixties to address tax issues in retirement. And not that you can't address them, you know, later on in life, but the earlier you start, the better. The more time we have to plan, the better.

So just in general, I would say start tax funding early, even if you don't think that you're a tax funding candidate for whatever reason, I promise you, begin that journey now and start putting those things into place because you can do a lot between now and retirement and between now and end of life to, to reduce that tax bill.

And I just wanna kind of preface, you know, today's conversation about taxes. We are not trying to avoid taxes, right? Like we all need to pay our fair share of taxes. I'm totally on board with that. What we don't wanna do is overpay the IRS, right? Leave the IRS a tip.

So a lot of what we talk about is just taking control over your tax bill, because if you don't, the IRS is gonna make you pay taxes on their terms and it you know, it can come at an inter opportune time. So start that tax planning early, which is, you know, why we're having this conversation today.

Steve Chen: Yeah, for sure. You know, I, once I was having a conversation with a small business guy a couple years ago, just, you know, out outside of our work, and he was actually in the tax business, but he owned a bunch of valuable but illiquid assets in, you know, qualified accounts.

And he was like, yeah, it could be facing huge RMDs on these illiquid things, so I'm gonna have this big tax liability. Like, you know, he had invested in businesses and real estate and stuff like that, and he was like, really having to think hard about how am I gonna create the liquidity?

And that's where I totally get it. Yeah. Getting in front of this, seeing, understanding what could happen. I think a lot of people don't realize that if they have a lot of assets, they could be having more income in retirement than they had when they were working and they're gonna have to pay taxes on that stuff.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I often say, yeah, you could find yourself, you probably will find yourself in a higher tax bracket in retirement than as a working professional when all these things start to collide, especially if you have a pension, right? Pension plus social security plus RMDs. Maybe you have, you know, rental real estate income, all of a sudden you've got, you know, a mid-six-figure income that you didn't anticipate.

Steve Chen: So is there kind of like an order of attack when you, when you're dealing with, you know, your clients where, okay, let's think about Roth first. Let's think about donor advice funds, or let's think about contributions. I mean, how do you kind of, you know, approach it?

Taylor Schulte: I, you know, I think it depends on what stage of life you're in. You know, if you're approaching retirement, one of the first things that we do with our clients is determine your total, what we call your total retirement tax bill. So how much are you going to pay the IRS from now until end of life? So let's just start there with that baseline, right? And determine how much you're gonna pay the IRS from now until the end of life.

Second to that, starting to identify, you know, your current tax bracket today versus your projected tax bracket in retirement specifically, again, at those ages, age 70 and 72, age 70 is when social security kicks in. If you choose to delay it that long in age 72 is the required minimum distribution age.

And so comparing your current tax bracket today to your projected tax bracket there in the future, and then you can start to work through, okay, what can I do between now and those ages to reduce the amount that I'm going to pay the IRS from now until end of life?

And so that'll kind of dictate your order of operations, you know, if you're still in the wealth accumulation phase and not quite ready to approach, you know, Roth conversions and charitable giving and things like that. Yeah, you know, starting to think about your current tax bracket if you're in an extremely high tax bracket. Yeah, you know, I mean, taking that deduction now and using a traditional 401k makes sense.

But I see far too often people just defaulting to a traditional 401k or a traditional IRA because they just don't know any better. And it may not make sense for, you know, a large percentage of people unless you're in that really high tax bracket and you see that tax bracket dropping in retirement. So, you know, there are a few things to do there, first to determine that order of operations.

Steve Chen: Yeah. Any like, kind of key things people should remember about when they're, if they're looking at a Roth like that, they should know about this and how it works? A Roth IRA or Roth 401k?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah. I mean, we always say, you know, Roth is the magical account, right? You get money in that Roth and it not only does your money and investments grow tax-deferred tax-free, but it also comes out tax-free. And so kind of the name of the game is getting as much money as possible in those Roth accounts.

Now, there might be years, again in the wealth accumulation phase where it might not make sense to put a bunch of money in your Roth, even if you have the ability to, put in at the end of the day, getting as much money into those Roth accounts as possible, not only can help your tax bill and retirement, but also provides just a ton of flexibility.

Because if you're in retirement and you have all of your money locked up in a traditional IRA and you need a new roof on your house, or there's an emergency of some sort, and you have to tap into your retirement accounts, you know, you're gonna have to pay a tax bill just to get access to that money. So having that Roth again, not only helps with that tax bill but gives you flexibility when there are, you know, unforeseen things that happen in retirement.

Steve Chen: Yeah. I know a lot of our users are really thinking hard about doing Roth conversions from their normal, traditional qualified IRA 401ks into the Roth vehicle if they have lower income years, you know, kind of at the end of their traditional career, but before they stay start social security, so maybe between 60 to 70, you know, can they capture some of the tax benefits and kind of fill up those marginal rates.

But yeah, it's, you know, you have to be thoughtful about it and you gotta be prepared to pay the taxes now and kind of think through the long-term repercussions of it.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we call those years your gap years, the year you retire until age 70 and 72 and your gap years are prime years for tax planning. So yeah, you nailed it.

One thing I want to highlight though is you may not always be in a lower tax bracket, right? Let's just say that, you know, you're in your gap years right now, and you're in the 22% tax bracket and you run some projections and you find out that you're going to be in the 22% tax bracket for all of retirement, right? It's not gonna change.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't consider Roth conversions because having money in those traditional IRAs or traditional 401ks is essentially a growing tax liability that that RMD is just getting higher and higher by the day.

So a very simple example is, you know, would you rather pay 22% on 1 million today or don't do anything, let that million dollars grow to 2 million and then pay 22% on $2 million, you know, 10 years from now. So we wanna be careful of those growing tax liabilities too. It's not just always about comparing, you know, today's tax bracket versus the future.

Steve Chen: Yeah, yeah. And I think with RMDs, what a lot of people don't understand is that they grow over time. So the percentage you have to take out annually is increasing as you age.

So the IRS was saying, Hey, I think that you're gonna live to age 90, you know, at 72 you're taking out one thing. As you approach 90, the percentages become very significant. And if you have big balances, you're gonna be like, okay, I'm honking out 200 grand out of my qualified and paying taxes on it, I have no choice.

So that, that can happen. And I think you have to be thoughtful. Like, do I wanna, when do I wanna use this money? You know, because you wanna live once. So last thing on Roth, you know, I think there's also some estate benefits to it as well, right? That it can go to your errors in a much more tax-efficient way.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, absolutely. I know we're gonna dive a little bit more into legacy planning, but you know, there are some new tax laws that went into effect last year and you know, if your child or grandchild for that matter inherits your traditional IRA, they now need to exhaust that account. They need to withdraw all the money from that account and pay taxes on it within a 10-year time period.

And depending on where they are in their working life that may or may not be a good thing for them to have to hurry up and take money out of that account and pay taxes on it. It may not be what you want for them. So by, you know, leaving them, leaving your errors, a Roth IRA instead gives them a ton of flexibility. So it's much easier for them to inherit a Roth IRA than a traditional IRA, especially given these new tax laws.

So I think it's something to think about that maybe even if there isn't a huge tax benefit to you for doing Roth conversions or stuffing money into a Roth 401K or Roth IRA, maybe legacy planning is really, really important to you.

So just forget about the tax benefits while you're alive. You know, you might be putting your children or grandchildren ahead of you and saying, well, I just want it to be much easier on them, so when they inherit this bucket of money, they don't have to worry about taxes and the IRS, you know, breathing over their shoulder.

So something that I think often gets ignored. And it's tough too, right? Because, you know, if you're 60, 65 years old, you still have a long time to live and you don't really know exactly what your intentions are gonna be at death. So these are some hard conversations and, you know, they're fluid, you know, you might not know today.

And that's why I really encourage, you know, especially married couples to have these conversations regularly, you know, have a nice glass of wine and yeah, continue talking about what do we wanna do with this money. Right?

Steve Chen: Right. For sure. It's great. Well, last quick just color commentary on Roth before we go. So today I saw headlines on Twitter that Peter Thiel has stashed $5 billion in the Roth. And so some inside baseball, I know some folks that know him, and like literally 10 years ago, people were like, yeah, you should consider putting founding shares and holding it in your Roth. You know, because people are doing this.

And it's so funny to kind of fast forward now it's getting like airplay, I mean, specifically, people are saying this is something that like the Facebook mafia are doing, they're taking these positions and they're putting it in Roths and to see it now, like as a headline, and by the way, it turned into $5 billion and it's all tax-free. You know, it's kind of funny, but it's gonna get a lot of attention clearly. I mean, that was not the intent, but, you know, people will find ways to be super tax efficient or too tax efficient.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah. And you know, unfortunately with those headlines, it may be doing a disservice, you know, to the rest of us now that that's front and center in the media and the news. Some of those loopholes might be closed now, and that's kind of unfortunate, but a hundred percent, yeah, it is wild to have $5 billion inside of a Roth IRA. I'm sure the IRS is not too happy about that.

Steve Chen: Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, it's a confluence of like Roth, but also self-directed IRAs, which is another topic. I mean, I'm interested and I think some people are, you know, they're thinking about alternative assets and real estate and they're like, oh, I, you know, how can I hold this? Where can I put this asset? And, you know, there are some real tax efficiency things that you can do.

Alright. So a couple other things on tax planning. You know, just could you give us a little color on kind of donor-advised funds, how they work, who they're for, and you know, how people use them?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah. If you're not familiar with donor-advised funds you know, do yourself a favor and start to read up on them or talk to your financial planner about them. I'll just preface what I'm about to say by saying you have to be charitably inclined first.

So donor-advised funds provide a great tax benefit but you have to be charitably inclined. So we're not gonna use a donor-advised fund to try and save money on taxes. We're gonna use it to be more intentional about our charitable giving and maximize those tax benefits. So if you're charitably inclined I would highly suggest looking into donor advice funds. They're extremely flexible and they're low cost.

And now there are companies like Fidelity Charitable that don't have any minimums. So sometimes when we think about charitable giving, again, we think about the ultra-rich, you know, I don't have enough money to engage in meaningful charitable giving, and that's just not true, especially with donor-advised funds.

So the great thing about donor-advised funds is you can put money in the donor-advised fund today and get the tax benefit, get the deduction from that contribution today, but you don't have to give away the money to charity right away. So you put that money in a donor-advised fund, you can invest it in stocks, bonds, or just keep it in cash. And then you can give that money away over time, maybe a little bit each year. Maybe you give it away all at your, at the end of life, but you get the tax deduction in that given year.

So if you have a high-income tax year, a big tax bill coming up and you know you're charitably inclined, you might use that year to put, you know, a good amount of money in that donor-advised fund, get that tax deduction today to help your current year tax bill, but then take your time donating that money, you know, throughout life.

And again, it might be end of life. And this is where you know, if you're not currently giving to charity, so, you know, one very simple example maybe you give $10,000 per year to one organization every single year. Well, again, you find yourself in a high-income tax year, maybe, you know you're gonna give away $10,000 for the next 10 years, that's a hundred thousand dollars. Maybe you put a hundred thousand dollars today in that donor-advised fund, get that tax deduction on a hundred thousand dollars contribution and then still give away your $10,000 each year for the next 10 years.

So that's one, you know, common scenario. But the other is, well, I'm not engaged in charitable giving today, but you know, in my trust it says that end of life we want, you know, a hundred thousand dollars to go to these three charities at the end of our life. So in those, in that situation, we often have this conversation with clients, well, you know, when you're not here anymore you're not gonna get the tax benefit, right? Yeah, your money will go to charity, but you're not gonna get any benefit while you're alive.

So if you know you're gonna give away a certain amount of money at end of life, you might consider putting that in a donor-advised fund today. Take a hundred thousand dollars, put it in that donor-advised fund, you can invest that money while you're alive in addition to getting that tax bill. And so or that tax deduction, and not only will you get a tax deduction in that current year, but that a hundred thousand dollars could grow to 200 or 300 or $400,000 at end of life. Those charities are gonna be really thankful that you did that.

So again, start thinking about you know, what do we wanna do in terms of charitable giving and legacy planning at end of life? And start to think about does a donor-advised fund, you know, fit into any of this?

These are, you know, big conversations and tough to have sometimes and not a lot of clarity. But, you know, you can also just start really simply too, you don't have to put six figures into a donor-advised fund right away. You can start with a little bit and kind of see how it goes.

Really quick, if you don't mind, I just wanna circle back to two more points on the donor-advised funds. One is if you're engaging in Roth conversions during your gap years and you are charitably inclined, then using a donor-advised fund during those years can help offset that tax bill from the Roth conversion.

Because remember, when you do a Roth conversion, you pay taxes on that conversion. Not everybody's super excited about that. So you can use a donor-advised fund at the same time to help offset that tax bill. So, you know, pairing a Roth conversion with a donor-advised fund is a really really great tax strategy to consider.

The second thing I just wanna make sure we highlight is in a donor-advised fund, you can contribute cash. You can also contribute appreciated securities, stocks, bonds, real estate. So if you bought Tesla stock $10,000 of Tesla stock and now it's worth a hundred thousand dollars you know you're gonna pay capital gains tax on that stock if it's in a taxable account you can actually just donate those appreciated securities straight to the donor advised fund and not have to pay those capital gains.

So not only do you, you know, avoid the capital gains, but you're able to maybe donate a little bit more to the charity because you know, you're not paying taxes. So donating appreciated securities to the donor advised fund can be a great strategy to consider.

So your question about QCD’s qualified charitable distributions, these are this is another tax strategy, giving money from your traditional IRA accounts. You know, some people we talk to, they don't have just cash lying around to go and put money into a donor-advised fund. But they have traditional IRA accounts, Most people have them. And again, at age 72, the IRS is gonna come knocking on your door and you're gonna have to take your required minimum distributions.

And you know, like you said, Steve, these can be hundreds of thousands of dollars each year and you may or may not need all of that money. So one way to avoid the taxes on that RMD because it's taxed just as like you earned it working, it's taxes, ordinary income you can take a portion of that and you can send it to a charity through a qualified charitable distribution, and it goes straight to that charity and you avoid paying taxes on the income.

Now you also don't have the money in your pocket anymore, right? It goes straight to charity. But if you don't need the money and you're charitably inclined, it's a great way to give to charity. you know, by using your RMDs if you don't have cash laying around.

A common situation we see here, and we just ran into it a couple weeks ago, a client gives a decent amount of money each month to their church. You know, let's just call it, you know a thousand dollars a month. And it just comes from their checking account each and every month which isn't very tax efficient.

So instead what we've got them doing now is just donating it through QCD’s. They're not doing it monthly, they're just doing it one time per year, but now they're doing it through the QCD so pre-tax money is going straight to the organization, and now they're able to give them a little bit more because they're not paying taxes on the distribution.

So it's just a way to be a little bit more thoughtful about your charitable giving. Again, it may not be about you, you might not care about reducing your tax bill, but when you think about it, by you not having to pay taxes, you could actually give the charity more money. So you know, it does benefit the charity as well.

Steve Chen: So at a high level, essentially you're gonna be forced to pay taxes one way or another. And if you use donor-advised funds or QCDs, you can really essentially trade off some of your tax liability for charitable giving that you control and you can kind of dictate how your wealth is used versus the government at a high level.

Taylor Schulte: Yep. Exactly.

Steve Chen: Yeah, makes sense. It's awesome. That's great. I really like the combining the DAF with the Roth conversions, because that's a big question we get is like, okay, I'm doing these conversions, you know, how do I cover that tax liability? You know, should I use a HELOC? Should I use savings? You know, do I use my, you know, Afro tax stuff? You know, but the DAF sounds like a clever strategy to kind of you know, if it's available to you to kind of keep more control over it. So Yeah.

Taylor Schulte: And that goes back to, again, being proactive about this stuff. If you're not prepared to do Roth conversions, you can be really caught off guard by a giant tax bill. So again, the earlier you start, even if you're not gonna start Roth conversions today, you might know what the projected tax bill is gonna be in a couple of years when you do start and you can start putting cash aside to pay those taxes.

So you know, you're not scrambling at the last minute to liquidate securities or, you know, take money from a HELOC, god forbid to pay those taxes. You can start to prepare for those tax bills ahead of time.

Steve Chen: Yeah, that's awesome. All right, well thanks for that color. So let's jump into legacy planning. So, you know, first kind of high-level question, you know, what percentage of your clients end up with kind of enough money where they have to be really thoughtful about this? Or how do I guess, how do you position, you know, legacy planning and who it's for?

Taylor Schulte: Well, you know, of course we wanna start off this exercise with making sure our clients are taken care of, and they're on a good track for retirement, that they're confident in their own retirement plan. That's know 99.9% of people wanna know that their own retirement plan is safe and intact. Most of our clients have done a tremendous job of saving money.

So, you know, through that exercise, they realize we don't need all of this money. There's no way that we're gonna be able to spend all of this money, to say most of our clients are in that situation. And then the question just becomes, well, you know, what are we gonna do? Right? Because if we don't plan, if we don't put a plan together for what is gonna happen to this money, you know, it may or may not align with your intentions.

So a lot of this just starts with a conversation and honestly, we'll have the conversation in our office or over Zoom and our suggestion is, you know, go home and break open a nice bottle of wine and just sit and have this conversation with each other and start to talk about it. It's kind of a, you know, a morbid thing, right? What happens when we pass away?

But again, if you have more money saved than you're gonna actually use and need, we should develop a plan for it. And as you can imagine, someone who's in retirement or retiring in the next couple of years has to be very careful about the amount of risk that they take with their investments, right?

When you're using your investments to generate income and create that retirement paycheck, we wanna be careful about how much risk we're taking, and we are not in the wealth accumulation phase anymore.

Well, by engaging in some legacy planning and breaking your money up into some different buckets, keep it simple and just say, you know, this bucket here is going to be invested for our children. Our children are going to inherit this money. Well, you know, you might invest that bucket more aggressively knowing that you're not gonna lean on it for your own retirement, that it's actually for your kids.

Or maybe it's for a charity. Hey, this bucket of money is gonna go, you know, to our donor-advised fund and we're gonna invest it really aggressively. So just like having this conversation is starting to think about that allows you to take more control over the different pieces of your plan and build a plan for them so you can maximize, you know, that money that you work so hard to earn.

Steve Chen: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you see, I mean, one of the things that I saw at least with Michael Kitces’ work was that for folks that are good savers, you know, what your clients are and have kind of built up that chunk of money when they go to retire, they actually don't end up spending it. They, it actually keeps growing, you know, until through their life. Do you see that? Or do people actually spend it down?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, it's very, very real. It surprises me every single time. Again, I just said that just about all of our clients have more money than they're able to spend, and almost every single one of them has this challenge of just enjoying the money that they worked so hard to save.

So a lot of our conversations just begging them to go and enjoy retirement and giving them the confidence to do that, but it is this kind of double-edged sword because the people that have done so well at saving money and investing money, well, they have control over their spending.

They have really good behaviors, and it's hard to go from a saver to a spender, right? Like it is just hard to change that behavior later on in life. And so it is this weird just like emotional psychological transition that a lot of clients just really struggle with.

Again, I think through some planning and earmarking certain dollars for certain things and, you know, going through a really thorough retirement planning analysis and giving clients the confidence to go and spend more than they're used to spending or buying that vacation home that they've always wanted, or, you know, flying first class whatever it might be. Like, starting to show them that it's actually possible can start to change the, you know, their behaviors a little bit.

But you know, unfortunately, we've had, you know, a number of clients pass away. We've never had a client pass away with $0 before. I'm not saying it's not possible, right? There are people that need to be very careful about outliving their money but I think most people die with money in the bank. Most people at the stage of life are just, are terrified to spend it down.

So yeah, you know, working through a plan and getting confident in, you know, what that plan looks like can make a huge impact. I mean, again, like enjoy what you work so hard to save for.

Steve Chen: Yeah. I think it's important for people to kind of also look forward and visualize, you know, what their life is like. So at 50 to 60 or one way it's 60 to 70 or another way it's 70 to 80 or another way, and 80 plus you're a different way, right? In terms of like what you're capable of and what you're gonna wanna do.

And I think a lot of people are like, oh yeah, I'm just, you know, the future's coming and it's gonna be like this, but, you know, nothing's guaranteed. And like, there are people in our family that, you know, people, you know, they get sick or people pass away in your kind of network of folks that you know, and it's like, you know, hey, you know, if you knew that this was gonna happen, like if you knew you had limited time, you might behave pretty differently today, right?

So you might be like, screw it, let's take a bunch of cruises, or let's go fly first class. You know, let's enjoy it a little bit. I think it is real though. You, it's hard to get people to kind of shift gears, you know to from that saving to spending mentality.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah. And again, going back to the charitable giving a lot of people feel better about spending money on somebody else, right? You just have a hard time spending money on themselves, or they don't really value, you know, big fancy vacations or, you know, expensive cars or whatever it might be.

But they've put a lot of value in helping somebody else. And so now again, charitable giving might fit into that and allow you to take well, the money that you've saved and, and put it to good work so that, you know, plays into a lot of this.

Steve Chen: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think also intergenerational planning is gonna become a much bigger deal is, you know, I mean for, well, for folks that have more money, but you know, in general, if as when we get more productive and hopefully more wealthy as a society, there's gonna be, you know, more to kind of, you know, share out for other folks.

Okay, so any other big considerations like when people are doing, I mean legacy planning, like kind of what are the big components that people should be thinking about and mechanically kind of constructing?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, I mean, you know, table stakes is to meet with an estate planning attorney or if you're a do-it-yourself type person, there are some great, you know, online estate planning tools where you can do the stuff yourself, but getting the basic documents in place I know you had an interview on this, getting your living trust and will and you know, power of attorney and having a letter of instruction on file.

These are table stakes. These are the things that you should have in place. It’s amazing how many people come to us and just don't have the basics dialed in. So like, first I would make sure you have that stuff dialed in.

Second, even the people that do have that stuff, it hasn't been updated in, you know, 5, 10, 15 years and, you know, tax laws are changing, estate planning laws are changing. You know, laws around your social media websites and pages have changed a lot. So we need to have those things updated.

So, you know, go back to that attorney, get that stuff updated from there again. And my wife and I just got done going through this, you know, in anticipation of our third child here. They're hard conversations. And so her and I literally, you know, we spent the last few months having some of these really hard conversations about if we're not here, if we're not in the picture, what do we want things to look like?

And, you know, we met with our attorney and we had a great conversation with her and she gave us some things to think and talk about, and it took us a long time to sit and talk about those. And then we literally just like typed them up in a document and then came back to the attorney to kind of formalize things.

So I know it doesn't sound like very technical here, and I don't know if you're looking for a technical answer or not, but when it comes to legacy planning, a lot of it is you and your spouse if you are married, really just having that conversation and identifying what's important to you. What do we want to happen? Where do we want this money to go?

You know, again, tax planning comes into play here, realizing some tax benefits today while you're alive instead of when you're, you know, not here at all. And so once you have a clear picture of that, you know, getting the financial planner and the attorney back in the picture to, you know, put the pieces together you know, what would be the next step from there.

Steve Chen: And like roughly, you know, what does this cost and how long does it take to kind of put these, I think, I feel like a lot of people feel like they should do this. And I, you know, you mentioned when we talk with Cameron in Huddleston about this and she's, you know, scared the heck outta me with like, what happened in her family and how you need to have all this stuff together.

And you know what, I still haven't done anything. It's just ridiculous because I'm in this space. So it feels like a lot of people know they should do it, but life gets in the way and then they don't take action. So just cost and timing would be great to hear.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, it surprises me to hear that, I mean, I hear that a lot too that people know they should do it, but they just don't do. It's just one of those things that they just kick the can down the road. And I don't think it's the cost that deters them, it's just it's not a really fun experience to go meet with your estate planner and put all these things into place.

So my guess is for you, it's not the cost and for most people it's not the cost because we work with a great estate planning firm here. They only work with people in California. So if you're in California, feel free to reach out to me and I'll share their contact information with you. But you can get all this stuff done for under a thousand dollars.

They're a great firm, you know, there's no like fancy mahogany desks or anything like that, but great attorneys, they only focus on California and you can get all this stuff done in for under a thousand dollars. If you have a really complex situation, it could cost, you know, 5, 10, 15, you know, a hundred thousand dollars for that matter. But for most of us, it shouldn't really cost more than $5,000 to get all this stuff done.

I think the biggest challenge is the time we have to reach out to the attorney, right? We have to go through this exercise, we have to answer some hard questions, we have to think about death, right? Just not fun.

So, but you know, for, to me, like even if you had to spend $5,000, this is some of the most important stuff, you know, that you could be putting together. But instead we like to talk about, you know, stocks versus bonds and Tesla and Bitcoin, right? But we still don't have a living trust and a will in place.

Steve Chen: Well, I know if, and if you end up having to go through probate, which is what is gonna happen if you don't have the stuff put together, there's like significant tax and time implications where your family can't get ahold of money, the government's gonna take it, think like 10% automatically and like, and it's a massive headache.

Taylor Schulte: So probate and on top of all that, probate attorneys charge a lot of money. But just sit and picture your heirs, your children, your grandchildren, having to deal with probate attorneys, you know, just after you passed away. They're grieving, they're sad, they're trying to get through this difficult time and now they're dealing with probate attorneys, you know, trying to go through all this, I don't think that's what anybody wants.

So again, you know, start to think about your, your heirs in this and hopefully that motivates you, Steve, to go and get this stuff done.

Steve Chen: It does. Well we've also had this idea of like one to many, so maybe we'll see if we can organize a class on it or something where we talk to your group and like, Hey, let's just get a bunch of people and do it all together because it's something everyone should do. But no, I appreciate that.

Yeah. And for sure. Any other, like, when you're thinking about kind of legacy and, you know, organizing stuff, things that people need to keep in mind and resources they should consider because I do wanna get, I wanna talk about that and then get into kind of some user questions.

Taylor Schulte: I mean, I think we covered a lot there. Again, I would think about the ability to break up your savings and your investments into different buckets and investing those for different purposes. Starting to think about, you know, if you do have children, grandchildren that you wanna plan for, you know, college planning, education, things like that, it allows you to, you know, maybe gather some tax benefits through it.

But also if you just be more intentional about how that money is invested you know, and what it's for. You know gifting versus inheriting. I know a lot of families will gift money on a regular basis. But you know, inheriting assets allows for that step up in basis, right? If there are large capital gains that you don't wanna realize your heirs inheriting those get a nice tax benefit.

So you might think about letting your heirs inherit assets versus gifting them while you're alive. Now there's a lot of considerations there to think about you know, but again, I think it all goes back to like, what do we want to happen in the first place? And then you can start to back into all these different tactical ideas.

But in general I think you nailed it with like, most people just don't have the basics nailed down. So let's be careful about talking about all the tactics. Let's just get the basics nailed down and have those hard conversations with our family.

And maybe that's the last thing I'll say is I had a great person, I'm drawing a blank on her name. I had her on the podcast and she talked about having these legacy planning conversations with your heirs, right? Have them in the room and talk to them about what you want to happen, you know, what your intentions are and what you've put together so that they hear it from you directly. Yeah. I think that can be a really powerful conversation too.

Steve Chen: Yeah. I think one of the tensions I hear, especially for people that have, if they're in a situation where they're thinking hard about this and they tend to have a lot of money, and then one of the tensions is, yeah, I wanna be intentional. I want people to know what I wanted, but I also don't want to clue people in that, hey, you might become financially independent at 30 if you know, I got a trust or I have a trust question for you.

But like, you know, and does that affect the psychology? As you know, it's mostly their kids, right? That, oh, I'm 20 years old, but you know, if this happens and I inherit a bunch of money, then I might have to work super hard. You know, and I think people that tend to have money, they tend to be success-driven. They want their kids to be successful, and it's all about values and hard work, and they don't want to take that away from their kids.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, no, absolutely.

Steve Chen: Is there any way to bridge that or people just kind of talk, Hey, generally, like, this is how we're thinking about it and, you know, here's the values, but you know, you'll know more about the money later.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of ways you can go about doing that. You know, there are ways to kind of control your assets from the grave, right? Putting things into trust. And, you know, the great thing about a trust is that you can create your own law essentially. You can literally write whatever you want in that trust.

And so if you set up trust for your heirs to inherit these are irrevocable trusts, you know, when you pass away. So no changes can be made to them. You know, what it says is what's gonna happen. And it does allow, you know, people to control their money from the grave and dictate how the money is being spent and, you know when it's being spent.

So yeah, there are certainly ways to go about doing that, but that also causes other issues too, right? Frustration from your errors or you know paragraphs or sentences inside the trust that can be interpreted different ways and so there's a lot of considerations there.

Steve Chen: Actually, this is the first question I had from a user, which is Laurie M, my question is, when does it make sense to set up a trust?

Taylor Schulte: You know, I think it varies state by state. In California, most people need, you know, if you own a home, you should have a living trust. So I don't care if you're 30 years old or 70 years old, you should have a living trust in these basic estate planning documents set up.

Again, it just allows you to tell the court what you want to happen with all of these assets, because if you don't, then again, probate comes into play and the courts will decide what happens to your money. So, in California, most people should have a living trust in some states, not necessarily true, but I'd say, yeah, you know, if you have assets net worth over a hundred thousand dollars, you own a house, you have some investment accounts, you should have a trust.

And again, it doesn't cost very much money, and you get to just kind of write your own letter of the law. Here's what I want to happen. So it is state by state, but yeah I don't know what else to say's. Not an exact age or science to it.

Steve Chen: No, no, that's good to know. I mean, I think for a lot of folks, they hear trust and they're like if I have, you know, 3, 5 million bucks, I'll think about a trust. But sounds like no, you should be really thinking about it at a much lower level.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, it is a broad term and right, like there's like a basic living trust for you and your spouse and you put your house in the trust and you put your investment accounts in the trust and you're your checking accounts in the trust. And again, you're just doing that so that when you pass away the courts, the executor knows what's gonna happen to all these things. Right.

How it's going to be split up. Exactly. There's no question about it. You can get into really advanced trust planning, like we were just talking about, controlling money from the grave and breaking into multiple trusts and, you know, kids inheriting trust with certain law. Like it can get really complex, but just basic, basic living trust will advance medical directive, like most people should have that into place.

Steve Chen: Okay, well, actually this leads into the second question, which is the more complicated situation. So we have one of our members, John R, what are the pros and cons of estate distributions based on age or life events?

So, you know, 21, 25, 30, 35, graduate high school, graduate college, get married, have a house. I know some people have triggers, like you talked about making rules that they don't want the kids if something happens to get a bunch of money when they're 21 years old, for instance.

Taylor Schulte: Yep. So again, yeah, one of the benefits of having a living trust, you get to make up your own rules. You know, you can choose any age you want or certain life events or whatever it might be. And you know, like John mentioned, there are pros and cons to doing this. And I think first it's, well, what are your intentions?

I hear from some families that say, you know, I want my son to have a hundred thousand dollars. I don't know at a certain age, I don't really care what he or she does with it. If he wants to go, you know, buy a Lamborghini or go invest it in Bitcoin, but whatever, I don't really care. That's one thing.

But there are others that say, you know, I want my child to have this money to start a business or to buy their first house or to pay for their wedding. And they want to create some rules around that. And it might not also be a lump sum, it could be income, right? It could be a certain amount of income each year, or income from the investments.

I mean, you can spend this a thousand different ways. So I think one of the pros is that you have control over what happens to that money that they're not gonna go blow it on something that you may not value.

But the con is, is just that too, that being controlled by somebody else doesn't always feel really good, right? Someone telling you what to do with this money. It's not your money, but it can certainly create, you know, some friction and some households and some frustration.

Also, again, sometimes these things are not written super clearly. I'm struggling to think of a really good example off the top of my feet, but sometimes it's just really kind of broad and it can be interpreted in different ways. And it's really up to the trustee to finalize that interpretation.

So you may not agree with the interpretation, it may not have been written really clearly, and you as the beneficiary might start to get a little frustrated. So yeah, they're definitely pros and cons. I do think in general, most people do put an age, at least right on kids inheriting money. Yeah. I don't think a 16 year old needs to inherit, you know, a sizable amount of money at that age. So yeah, having some basic things into place seems to be pretty common.

Steve Chen: Okay, great. question here from Chris S it sounds like the vast majority of CFPs are focused on the asset-building portion of our lives, which we talked about. How do you find a tax advisor who has the ability to give decent advice on the post-retirement end of things? I mean, is there some membership group or network? I mean, there's yourself clearly.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah. it is tough because a lot of financial advisors, you know, again, like I said at the beginning of the show, they want to work with everybody. And so you don't find a lot of specialists, people that only work with retirees in the deaccumulation phase of life.

Chris asked specifically about a tax advisor. You know, it is possible to find a tax expert, not even a financial planner or a CFP, but a really good CPA potentially that helps with tax planning. It is, again, really challenging to find really good CPAs that are proficient in tax planning. Most CPAs just, you know, do tax returns year over year and they do it for a thousand families and they don't have time to do, you know, really nuanced tax funding, but a tax attorney even potentially.

In terms of resources, I think honestly the retirement podcast space, there's a handful of us retirement experts that have podcasts. So you might do some searches through the podcast apps and find some more retirement podcasts. Again, many of us own firms and work with people directly. But there isn't a network that I'm familiar with, although napfa.org napfa it's a network of fee-only advisors.

So advisors like myself that don't charge commissions or anything like that you can filter for certain types of advisors so you can choose exactly what you're looking for and it'll pull up people that specialize in those things. But you also run into advisors that have checked every single box, so no matter what you check, they're gonna show up. So, yeah you're gonna have to introduce some people and do some due diligence and make sure you're finding the right person.

Steve Chen: Right. Well, I hear you on the podcasting thing. I think podcasts are excellent because you can kind of hear from the folks and judge for yourself, these people know what they're talking about and they have the experience that will be useful to me.

Alright, well look you know, as we wrap it up, just some quick questions. Anything you want to share with our audience about kind of like what's next for you? How you see building your firm going forward?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, again, you know, we work with about 70 families around the country. Ideally we want to add another 50 or so families to the firm. We're a low-volume firm. We're not trying to, be the next Morgan Stanley or anything like that. So we're just very intentional about the clients we take on, they become like family to us.

So we're just very careful and grow slowly and intentionally. So we're looking forward to taking on another 50 families or so. And I think we'll have a really good specialized business from there. So for me, I've done a lot the last 15 years of my career, and I really just want to spend time with people that really value me and value my expertise and we have a good relationship. it's just not really about dollar signs.

And so yeah, just getting really clear on who we do our best work for and just really helping those people is what we're focused on.

Steve Chen: Yeah, fair enough. I think it's a great answer. I think one of the challenges is that frankly, there's a huge need for this. There's just not enough people that are really awesome at it, and it's hard to do. Like I'm talking a lot with Dana about this. She, you know, she does amazing work, but you know, it's friction full. It takes a lot of effort and thought, and so you can't do it at scale.

There's, and that's part of like, I'm not trying to push toward what we're doing, but like, that's part of what we're trying to think about is can we help at a baseline level folks kind of get, at least build awareness about some of the things they should be thinking about? I still think there's gonna be, there's a need for many more folks that are experts at this.

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, and I mean, I think there are plenty of experts out there. I know it can be a little tough to find but they're out there. I think the one thing I would say, and this is not a sales pitch for us or our services or anything, but you know, at some point you have to ask yourself, is this really how I wanna spend my retirement? Right? Is this really how I wanna spend my time navigating, you know, tax planning and managing my investments even for that matter in retirement? What's really important to you?

It might be interesting. I promise you 99% of our clients are extremely brilliant. They can do this stuff themselves. They just kind of figure out, I just, that's not really what I wanna be doing at stage of life. So yeah, just might be one of those things that you outsource. But you do have to get over delegating that and you know, delegating it to somebody else and letting them do it and you know, it, it does cost money, which, you know, is another hurdle for some people for

Steve Chen: Sure. all right. You know, one, just one quick question for you about kind of like, maybe you don't think about this that much but do you think about kind of the near term, like the next couple years? Do you think that we're gonna, it feels like we're the world's changing a little bit.

We've gone through covid, we're seeing a huge amount of capital out there. Asset prices are increasing, do you kind of have an opinion about where things might be going with the economy? Or do you, are you kind of like, well, look, just bet on the US economy, it's gonna work out fine and not think about the, the near term or the tactical stuff too much?

Taylor Schulte: Yeah, you know, our guiding philosophy is to focus on the things we can control. And there's not a lot that we can control in the day-to-day markets and the economy and what the fed's gonna do with interest rates. It's interesting to pay attention to and keep your finger on the pulse, but we don't have a lot of control and we don't have a crystal ball.

I was speaking at a conference just before Covid and I was on stage speaking to a group of financial advisors and I was talking about stress testing your investments against a catastrophic loss, comparing it to 08 or 09, making sure you know how much risk you're taking in your portfolio.

And I had an advisor jump up and start to kind of heckle me from the audience saying, what are you talking about? The economy is healthier than ever. There's no catastrophic event around the corner, like people should be taking more risk. And then, you know, we leave that conference and what do you know a pandemic that nobody could predict happens. And, you know, stock market drops 34% in just a matter of days.

So, you know, we can't predict things on the upside and we can't predict things on the downside, you know, what I do know is that even if you're retired, you're age 65 today, you still have another 30, 40 years ahead of you. And I do know that over those 30 or or 40 years, I feel very confident that things are gonna be moving, you know, up into the right.

So if you can stay focused on those things, you can control and try to try to mitigate the noise out there, I think you'll sleep much better at night and you'll be much more successful at the end of the day.

Steve Chen: 100%, no, that's the exact right message, you know, focus on the long term and kind of forget the noise and that's who's successful.

Alright, well look, Taylor, this was fantastic. Really appreciate all the insight on tax planning and legacy planning and some of the strategies you shared, and we'll put up some of the links we talked about so that I'll wrap it up. So yeah, thanks for being on our show. do Robeson, thanks for being our sound engineer.

For the folks listening, appreciate your time, hopefully found this useful. And if you've made it this far, definitely check out Taylor's Stay Wealthy in Retirement podcast. And you can also check out our site at yourretirement.com or our group in Facebook, which is growing pretty fast. We just went over 5,000 people where people kind of just talk among themselves and they're also experts in there, you know, asking and answering question.

And then finally, any reviews for my podcast or Taylor's podcast are always welcome. Feedback is good, helps, you know, get distribution out there. And with that, thank you and have a great day.

Episode Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. This podcast is not engaged in rendering legal, financial, or other professional services.